Transcript
Dr Max Liboiron in conversation with Dr Aimi Hamraie
00:00:12 INTRO [Various overlapping voices] Contra* is friction. Contra* is nuanced. Contra* is transgressive—good trouble. Contra* is questions. Contra* is collaborative. Contra* is a podcast. It’s a space for thinking about design critically. Contra* is subversive. Contra* is texture.
00:00:32 Contra* You are listening to Solidarity Chats: a special section of the Contra* podcast on disability, design justice, and the life world. These episodes, recorded during the COVID-19 pandemic, focus on disability, eugenics, and mutual aid. We’re hoping to capture some of the conversations that disabled people, and our allies, are having about issues such as healthcare infrastructure, medical triage, eugenics, and technology as it is unevenly distributed across the population. These episodes are also going to come out at a different rate than the regular Contra* episodes, so please make sure to subscribe on Google, Apple, or Stitcher so that you don’t miss any.
00:01:27 Aimi This is Aimi Hamraie and I am so thrilled to be here with Max Liboiron, Associate Professor of Geography and Associate Vice President of Indigenous Research at Memorial University in Newfoundland, Canada. Max also directs The CLEAR Lab, which is the Civic Laboratory for Environmental Action Research; a feminist, anti-colonial marine science laboratory that specializes in grassroots environmental monitoring of plastic pollution, and that has created amazing protocols for thinking about how power works in research and publication. And—very exciting—Max’s amazing book, Pollution is Colonialism, will be available for pre-order very soon from Duke University Press. Welcome, Max!
00:02:21 Max Hello, thank you!
00:02:24 Aimi So, I am really excited to talk to you, because so much of your research and the conversations that we’ve had touch on subjects that are coming up now around Coronavirus--ideas about risk and kind of like collective action. Also, things about how you run your lab and how you administer at university. So, let’s just get right into it, what are your thoughts about this pandemic that we find ourselves in?
00:02:55 Max Well, it’s pretty interesting because I think a lot of what people are realizing—it’s an extreme but quintessential example, I think, of things that already exist. It’s sort of like the—this idea that you only see infrastructure when it breaks. Suddenly, things that I think a lot of folks knew—particularly Indigenous folks, folks with disabilities, a few other folks, right—knew certain things to be true and now other people are discovering that yes, those are true things. And so, things that I think were subtle, or latent, or premised before are now, like, flying in your face. And people are having to deal with that. So, it’s interesting to watch how that happens and how these latent things become just gloriously, robustly obvious. For better and for worse. But useful for criticism; useful for building different futures; useful for figuring things out; useful for making a different future, or multiple futures, right? That’s the goal I think for a lot of folks. If they can muster a goal right now, that doesn’t involve laying on the coach—which is also legit. So, yeah.
00:03:57 Aimi So, what are some of those things that are becoming legible now or obvious that had—like, that disabled people and Indigenous people have been saying before?
00:04:09 Max So, there’s a bunch of low-hanging fruit, including ones that you’ve been sending out like, “Hey people, when people ask for accessibility and accommodations, it turns out you can indeed give them to people. It turns that you can lead with generosity and thinking about others. It turns out that you are in fact part of a collective, even if you don’t choose to be,” right? These—some of these are some the obvious and low-hanging fruits. But one of the ones that’s become really obvious I think, and I was actually just talking to Rick Chavolla 00:04:34, who’s my godfather and an Elder 00:04:36, yesterday—and I talk about this in my book as well, is that there is a—it’s very Western and often colonial, this idea that you can reserve certain futures for yourself. Right? So, colonialism isn’t just about, like, reserving land for colonial and settler goals. It’s also about reserving futures—time, for colonial and settler goals. And people are grieving futures that they can no longer plan into, there is too much uncertainty for sort of grab-on and secure those futures? And people are really suffering from that, but other people aren’t, because not everyone can do that. 00:05:09 So, that includes again, folks with disabilities. A lot of us are like, “Hm, what can I not do today? Nope, not getting out of bed. Okay.” So, just planning has a very different register. Folks who are very rural or very remote, also we know that you can’t plan. Because weather, because food, you know, whatever. A lot of Indigenous folks, especially traditionalists, it’s not necessarily part of some cultures, this idea of planning and being able to foretell the future through your own desires. And so, some people are waking up to that and feeling really uncomfortable about it, while other ones of us are… are not suffering in that way. So, it’s—
00:05:45 Aimi Yeah, it’s kind of just what we do, and we’ve had to live with that uncertainty forever. And so, that sort of, like, mastery of the future, ownership over our particular future, is not something that has taken for granted, for sure. How is this pandemic affecting your work? Like both your research and your administrative work, and I don’t mean like, “Are you writing every day?” But like, how is it entering into the world of like pollution and discard, and colonialism?
00:06:25 Max Yeah, so first of all, I haven’t written every day, ever. I have always had multiple jobs, problems breathing, people to look after. So, that continues not to be the case. But so, I have two jurisdictions of care and responsibility that have—that were in play before these but have sort of become very important. One is the lab and the other is Memorial University of Newfoundland; both of which I have responsibilities of care to. So the lab, the first thing that’s—and both of these things moved in to the crisis mode very quickly and now we are trying to figure out sort of, in-term day-to-day; where in-term can be like a week or a couple of days or a month. Who knows, right? So, the first thing I did in the—in the lab was make sure that people had the—if they were hourly wage earners ensure that that wasn’t disrupted. And the university actually helped for that. So, our university—there’s a class of undergraduate and graduate students that are actually paid by the university. 00:07:25 And then faculty sort of work them as an apprenticeship program. The university said, everyone gets their money. Like, all of it, right now. And you don’t have to work. And what that meant is that students didn’t get caught in between this like, “Oh, I have to work for my hours.” And faculty and PI, Principal Investigators, didn’t have to feel—like, they just got all their money. But there’s a whole other class of hourly wage earners in science who don’t—who aren’t part of that program. And so, for them, I had to figure out a way to meet sort of granter expectations as well as hourly, sort of, expectations for them. So, I just basically moved all their work online and virtual and just said, “Hey, if you just round up—round up all your hours,” and that’s what we log. So, we went from slinging samples every day, to data entry, and checking in, and writing stories about how we were doing for the lab book every day, or as everyday as people wanted to do it. 00:08:25 So, that—and that actually took a ton of work. Moving people on, answering questions, just—yeah that sort of stuff. Figuring out infrastructure, making sure that I got keys back from people, so they didn’t—basically making sure that no-one felt obliged to work if they didn’t want to. Taking away their keys, so they couldn’t go to their office or the lab, right? Paying out their hours, making it—yeah, all that sort of stuff. Another lab manager, Kaitlyn Hawkins 00:08:53, who does a lot of that heavy lifting too. So, that was step one. It’s still in turmoil, like, we still haven’t got a “new normal” for the lab. We’re not having lab meetings, any of that sort of stuff. Part two is—or a different scale of jurisdiction is the university. So, I am the Associate Vice President of Research and that means I work in the Vice President Research Office. And we are in charge of taking care of the entire university’s research ecosystem. Grants, contracts, stipends that come from grants for students, animal care, ethics, technical services, right? 00:09:31 Things you don’t even know. Who tops up the nitrogen in the medical labs? Us, right. So, all this—all this—sorry, my Roomba is having a chat at the corner with itself.
00:09:43 Aimi Okay. [laughs]
00:09:45 Max Pause for a moment. There we go, the nice English lady who lives in my Roomba is done. So, what’s interesting—so mostly—in my lab it was—it became very obvious. Which wasn’t actually obvious to all scientists, that my lab can handle missing a season. Nothing breaks, the world doesn’t end. I’m not that important; my research is not important, we can fold for a season, not a big deal. But you can’t do that if you are in charge of all of the rats and pigs, and everything else. And fish, we have a lot of fish and protozoa, on campus. You can’t do that if you are in charge of like keeping things from breaking, and so I actually—I am in charge of—I manage a critical… critical team. And so, there is a lot of like, “Okay, how do you structure it so that people can lose their shit while they are also crucial? How do you make—” and we don’t have a lot of practice doing that, right? 00:10:40 So, productivity, people who are struggling with productivity; I was like, “Let productivity go. I need you to sit on your couch and cry, because when I need you in an emergency, I need you to be able to stand up. And that means you probably you weren’t already standing up,” so how do we structure that? How do we make sure that animal care keeps going on? And that sometimes includes mass death. Like, if the season’s gone and a bunch of animals are no longer able to be taken care of, the funding or the contract’s over and you get like—where does ‘killing well’ come into this? Where—right? All these sorts of tricky questions started happening. The thing sort of talking about what is obvious now that was not obvious before, is that a lot of professors, faculty, principal investigators still don’t seem to realize that they are part of a collective. Whether they choose to be or not. There’s still a lot of individualism and exceptionalism going on like, “Ooh, well, I can still get in to my lab because I still have the keys,” or worse, “I’m going to give my graduate student my keys and I’ll use them as cannon fodder as they go in to campus to check on samples,” or something like that, right? 00:11:45 So, that’s my responsibility. So, part of my responsibility is looking out for the assholes in the collective, who haven’t understood that they are part of the collective and trying to figure out how to manage those folks with care. Because they are also suffering in their own ways, including ways that I really don’t understand and don’t have empathy for. But I still have to care for them, and I still have to care for their graduate students, right? So that’s—and I do that with a larger team. But that’s what we are working on right now. We’ve sort of done the acute stuff, but now we have all these assholes running around, beating up the collective [laughs] with individualism. And that’s the next stage for us to try and bring them in.
00:12:27 Aimi Wow. Yeah, amazing. I just want to highlight a couple of things that you said because I think they are maybe different from—and fresh perspectives on—what it means to be an administrator. Like, you talked a lot about care. And like, caretaking and maintenance, and also, like, changing expectations around productivity rather than trying to mandate productivity in a time like this. Make sure that people get paid regardless of how productive they are being. And it seems like you are also mobilizing a lot of resources in the university, in order to care for life at many different—of many different forms and levels and not just sort of make, you know, laboratory animals expendable or forgotten, like in this case. And all of those strike me as things that are also very much part of, like, your research praxis and your identity as a scholar, as a feminist science scholar and an Indigenous scholar. So, I just want to highlight that for whoever is, like, listening to this podcast or reading the transcript, that there are other ways of doing this.
00:13:45 Max So, sort of expanding from that, and one of the reasons I was really interested to come on to this podcast and you—and to join your expertise in mutual aid, is that one of the things I think is also emerging here, is that there are types of mutual aid that people often forget about. And that includes things like mutual aid in collectives that aren’t together, right? So, the most obvious one is like, “Don’t show up in to public right now,” right? But as part of that I think there’s—there’s things like… um…. But I think that’s already happening, right? So, I already think that not showing up, and not showing up in certain ways, is a form of mutual aid that people often forget about. So like Sara Ahmed writes about this—this case in—on being included where she’s at this professional conference and she and a bunch of other Black folks were like, “We need a Black Caucus because this place is super white.” And so, they announce there’s going to be this Black Caucus, they come together, and all these white allies show up and they are like, “Erm?” 00:14:46 And then they have to emotionally manage the white folks, the white allies, who won’t leave because they feel entitled to “Black space.” So, in that case, actually, mutual aid—the best mutual aid is going away now, right? And if you are an ally and you can’t handle the going away and the stopping part of mutual aid, then you are not in a good ally space, right? Or—and the—the extreme version of this. And this is—this is part of colonialism. So, my working definition of “colonialism” is, “Colonial and settler assumed and entitled access to Indigenous land,” broadly defined. And so, the COVID-19 example of this is this couple from Quebec, who at the start of the pandemic decided that they needed to go Old Crow in the Yukon, which is about a hundred and something kilometers north of the Arctic Circle, super—no medical or anything there, right? And they are like, “Clearly we go to this pristine untouched community, which is full of people and elders and—and you know five times of its respiratory illness in Canada.” 00:15:46 Like, just… the entitlement of that move and to mis-imagine the collective you are part of can only be accomplished in that case through colonialism and white supremacy, right? And so, these things again are becoming—they are always there but becoming really obvious. And that impulse of that Quebec couple, I think is an impulse a lot of folks have, and they are just not quite that… ridiculously hardcore about it. So that’s—that’s the Black—that’s white folks showing up to the Black Caucus. That’s, you know—and these things happen all the time, right? Where sometimes mutual aid and allyship means going away, stepping back, leaving, pissing off. Right?
00:16:29 Aimi Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that gives us a lot of nuance, too, to thinking about how this moment is challenging some of the traditional ways that we think about mutual aid. Like, one is, “Solidarity not charity.” And—in this case like, yeah, solidarity is staying home. But solidarity may also look like things like not acting like a colonizer in your attempts to stay home. That there are all these contexts that are, like, paying attention to, you know, the power dynamics that are play. And, you know, also listening to what people say that they want and need too. Are there any other types of mutual aid that you are noticing are—that are emerging in this moment? Or—that are not new, but that are kind of becoming apparent?
00:17:32 Max So, from an administrative perspective, the mobilization of resource, like you said. So, our office, we have the—our office has this series of like, internal grants for faculty and principal investigators. And there is this teeny, teeny, tiny type called the Bridge Grant, which basically says, “If you have a graduate student or other postdoc, something like that—and there’s just this gap between your grants and you can’t pay them, we’ll bridge it for a little while. And that’s—maybe we give out five of those a year. And we probably give out close to a hundred of other different types of grants, a year. We’ve—we were like, “No, all grants now.” Like, that call goes first, and we put all the money there, and if there’s money leftover then we can talk innovation. But first, we are just bridging everybody. And—we have a writer on the grant that says, “Yeah, there are terms of reference but now we are going in to COVID mode and this is all need, screw merit.” Right? And that’s very specifically an administrative move, right? That’s administrative mutual aid. Because we also the—the coming back—the reciprocity of that, is that’s part of our collective. That is our research collective. Graduate students are our most intensive researchers. And we value them in all sorts of ways, including ways that might—some people might consider gross and also some ways that people might consider very generous, right? And those all are happening at the same time. People enabling other people to stay home by getting their office chairs for them, getting their plants for them, right? That sort of stuff. Like that—like, little stuff like that. Figuring out ways to close down or restrict buildings so that custodial stuff can go home. That’s what administrators are doing, faculty aren’t doing that right now at our university anyway. So those—like, those sorts of things? Because we’re in charge of infrastructure. Trying to change how that infrastructure flows and works; closes and opens, to support other people and their needs. In ways that I don’t think are very visible to other people.
00:19:30 Aimi I love this because it also shows how, in this moment in which so many of us are terrified of like this scarcity, that—you know, staying home and disruptions to the world and society are going to cause—that you are really leaning into redistribution and figuring out where resources are that can just be put toward what is needed at this moment. And I hope that we see similar stuff, you know, in other universities and in funding agencies and things like that. Also, in economic stimulus bills that don’t just, like, bail out corporations, you know? It’s like so clear to me based on what you are describing, that the—the philosophical basis of what you are doing is not traditionally what universities are supposed to be motivated by, and yet you’re, like, enabling people at your university to keep doing what they need to do in order to get through this.
00:20:36 Max And it wasn’t a big reach, right? Like it’s—so, one of the things— a piece that I really like is, la paperson’s Third University, because he talks about how universities in particular are actually very unfaithful to their colonial roots. And they consistently fail to reproduce colonialism; capitalism—pretty routinely, actually. And that’s the condition for change. And a lot of people, I think, especially give universities or administrators this, like, this power we don’t have, which is that we’re a smooth monolith of jerkiness, and we only think about certain things. Like, when we were tied in the structure 00:21:09, same as everyone else. But just this swiftness and, like, no—there was no debate about where we—we put money in to students who need it; we change from merit to need; we mobilize this quickly; everyone grabs everyone else’s office chairs. There was no—like, there was almost no coordination around that. I was in a meeting yesterday where one of the, like—pale, male and stale to the extreme—one of my coworkers, right? 00:21:33 This old guy who put together our intellectual property, thing, he’s pro-industry and he says in a meeting, “You know what, screw intellectual property right now, because when we have to make personal protective gear, maybe we just—we just back-design these and we can just deal with the legal fallout later.” And that—I mean, so for some of us that’s not a radical statement and we’ve been saying that forever, but for this guy? For him—and no one asked him. He didn’t, like—no one set him up for that. He just came out of the blue sideways in the meeting. Like, “You know what? You, lawyer! Get ready for intellectual property breach lawsuits, because we are going to back-design this personal protective gear and get them to the hospital!” Right? And every other moment of this guy’s life, he’s pro-industry.
00:22:11 Aimi Yeah.
00:22:12 Max It was there! It was easy. I’m not saying that like, you know, universities are, whatever. But we are a lot more nimble, and agile and—and caring, and good than people give us credit for. And I think people really need to be careful about giving us power that we don’t have. By saying—first of all by calling us administrators, as if there’s only one of us. And some universities run like that, depends what your president’s like, et cetera, but most can’t or don’t. And—and sort of working in all of these fairly large and patchy areas where we don’t reproduce capitalism, and we don’t reproduce colonialism, and we don’t reproduce crappy gender and we don’t reproduce ableism. There is consistent pockets like that. Yeah, and they are easier to see now.
00:23:01 Aimi Yeah. That’s amazing, it’s so, like, heartening to hear that, and to hear you frame it in that way. Because, yeah, like so many—so many of us have this impression of administration as a kind of monolith. Or it’s like the State, you know? And there’s this—there’s this, like, old anarchist idea that there is no State, there are only people acting like Statists, and I feel like the same is true of administration. It’s like, there is a way to act, that maybe operates within, like, scarcity logics, or things like that. And then there is this redistributive mode that you are working in, or people suddenly like, being like, “Oh yeah, it’s like capitalism is not this natural and inevitable force that we have to abide by all the time. What else can we do to save people’s lives?” It’s beautiful. So, one thing I wanted to ask you about—this is sort of shifting a little bit, but I have just been wondering about this and it seems like maybe you have some insights about it, is: before the Coronavirus pandemic, the thing that I was the most anxious about all the time was climate change. It was just sort of at the top of my mind. And it seems like a lot of the conversations that we have around climate change have shifted a little bit, and some of them directly relate to your research. So, for example, there’s a lot of, like, moralizing around plastics and stuff; and kind of, like, banning straws and plastic bags and things like that. That suddenly, there’s been like a three-hundred-and-sixty-degree reversal, it’s like you go to the grocery store and now you are not allowed to take your reusable bags. And then there’s, like, other stuff that’s sort of about the existential threat of it, I guess. And how people are thinking about that in different communities, and people who have types of perspectives around what kind of thing climate change is. So, do you have any thoughts about like how do we—how do we think about climate change in the era of the pandemic? Is that like a—too big of a question? [laughs]
00:25:07 Max Biggest question in the world. I can zoom down a little bit and talk about plastics, at least a little bit. Because they’re—I mean, they have—they share a feed stock, they share extractivism, like they are—they are super good buddies, plastic, oil and the other sort of feed stocks of climate change. So actually, before the pandemic, and in response to straw bans, I wrote about how—and this actually relates back to exactly what we are talking about ‘administration’. It’s like it’s not a monolith, there is actually a massive plurality in there. And if you treat it like a monolith, you are going to make ethical and justice-based mistakes. That will be inevitable, because the whole point about justice and ethics is that things are uneven. So, if you make a monolith, you’ve just erased the premises of justice indifference. Plastics—climate change is the same. So, for plastics, when people are like, “Ooh, you should ban all straws,” you are like, “Well, not all single-use plastics are created equal or used equally,” right? Medical—when people say single-use, you are including medical plastics in that; you are also including packaging. 00:26:04 Medical waste is actually a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny—not even its own category—of plastic production, worldwide. Packaging is the largest single category and it counts for about thirty to forty per cent of all plastics made—period—worldwide. They are not the same genre of thing. So, you know what? Maybe medical plastics can just hang out and do their thing for a while, while we deal with something like packaging plastics, right? And this—climate change relates to the same thing. How about if we don’t worry so much about—or in addition to worrying about our thermostats, we also look at the small number of companies that are creating eighty per cent of greenhouse gases worldwide. You have a scale problem, if you start conflating those things. And as soon as you conflate, as soon as you make monoliths—again, you miss the justice; you miss the nuance; you miss difference; you miss disability; you miss race, and racism specifically. You miss all these—colonialism, you miss all these things. So, watching how climate change—so, climate change is really fascinating right now. And I haven’t thought about this a lot, so these words are brand new coming out of my mouth. 00:27:07 So, everyone beware. But you are watching some parts of—of like, some climate goals being met and exceeded because no one has driven, or the factories are all shut down, or like, all the airplanes are grounded, sort of stuff. Mirrored with, “Oh, you know, President Trump has, like, just sort of abolished a huge chunk of the Environmental Protection Act.” And so, these uneven-nesses are—are crucial for thinking about climate change right now. Because, again, this is an extreme but quintessential example of what already happens. It’s making a sweeping remark right now, makes even less sense than it did before, but I don’t think it’s ever made sense. Right? Same with plastics, we’ve—in our lab, because we study plastic pollution, we’ve just casually, intentionally place-based-edness-edly 00:27:57 added the category of medical plastics to all of our studies. Because we want to watch that, right now. 00:28:05 Well, before, we had a special category for fishing gear, because that actually that really matters to the province. Sorry, there’s going to be some dogs now for a little while probably.
00:28:13 Aimi It’s okay, they are totally welcome.
00:28:16 Max These dogs have been on nearly every podcast and interview I have had in the past—however many weeks [laughs], because they are all happening from home now. So yeah. Someone’s walking outside. There we go. There—also a dog moved in downstairs, and so like, there’s dogs in all these houses, but now they can all see each other. And so, like, all this barking goes up and down the chain, when before it was just isolated events, it’s like—
00:28:43 Aimi Yeah.
00:28:43 Max It’s like, yeah.
00:28:45 Aimi Have you also been having like a lot more bird activity? That’s like a thing a lot of people have been talking about. It’s just, without planes flying overhead so much, the birds are just, like, so much louder.
00:29:00 Max So, I am not noticing as many birds. But I did see a hare, for the first time ever, in town the other day. And there—I mean, we always have moose wandering around but now there are more moose wandering around. So, yeah. Yeah, the—the porousness of the edges of the city have become even more porous, yeah.
00:29:22 Aimi So interesting.
00:29:22 Max Yeah.
00:29:23 Aimi Yeah.
00:29:23 Max And I have never seen a rabbit before, like not in town, yeah.
00:29:27 Aimi Like a big one, not like a little, tiny 00:29:28 bunny.
00:29:28 Max Like a hare.
00:29:30 Aimi Yeah, wow.
00:29:30 Max Yeah. Not a bunny but a hare, yeah.
00:29:31 Aimi Interesting.
00:29:32 Max Yeah.
00:29:33 Aimi Yeah, the—I mean the non-human animals know, and are telling each other things right now, that we can’t even begin to interpret. The birds where I live, from 4am to 6am every morning they chant in unison. It’s like, incredibly creepy. It sounds kind of fascist. It’s like, they are not just chirping at each other, they are, like, making this, like, rhythmic chirp for two hours. And I am like, what are they doing? Like what are they preparing to do? It’s terrifying.
00:30:08 Max [laughs] Yeah. My folks live way in the bush, and there is no electricity, or they, you know, make their own electricity, stuff like that. And whenever I visit them, like, the birds—I was like, God, I wish the birds would be quiet. They are up so early, and they are so loud, and they are doing their stuff. And I don’t know what it is, but it’s definitely impinging on my sleep.
00:30:26 Aimi Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for all of your thoughts and offerings and comments. This has been really amazing, and I hope that it will be informative for folks who are listening to this podcast too, as we try to navigate our university landscapes in the months to—in the months to come. Is there—are there any final words you want to leave us with?
00:30:52 Max Sure. So, one of the things — whenever I talk about administrative activism people are like, “Oh, I don’t have a million dollars, though, to redistribute.” We don’t have a million dollars either, we are a small university. We are like, “You’ve redistributed all of your grants, like—like, we can’t do that.” Everyone has a jurisdiction, right? Whatever scale is your scale of influence, is the place where you can redistribute things. Whether that’s your household, or your family, or your block, or your department, or your research group, or—in my case an entire university. A province, whatever it is. Everyone has a jurisdiction, and you can take up these lessons at whatever jurisdiction works. Even yourself, you leave alone with no animals and whatever, you’ve got a jurisdiction there. So, yeah. And people—that’s what people’s responsibilities are to their jurisdiction, and not beyond that. So, that not only does that mean you have a job of care and accountability you have to deal with, but you actually aren’t accountable for other things that are beyond your jurisdiction. Like, “Don’t worry about the university, I got that, you do your department. Or your faculty, or your research group, you are not responsible to the entire university right now.” So, you can release that and be accountable to this other thing. So, yeah.
00:32:05 Aimi Well, thank you so much Max, that’s wonderful. And let’s definitely continue to be in conversation about this.
00:32:14 Max Thank you! Thank you for inviting me! It’s so nice to see and hear you.
00:32:17 Aimi Yeah, likewise.
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