Transcript
Dasom Nah in conversation with Dr Aimi Hamraie
00:00:11 INTRO [Various overlapping voices] Contra* is friction. Contra* is nuanced. Contra* is transgressive—good trouble. Contra* is questions. Contra* is collaborative. Contra* is a podcast. It’s a space for thinking about design critically. Contra* is subversive. Contra* is texture.
00:00:32 Contra* You are listening to Solidarity Chats: a special section of the Contra* podcast on disability, design justice, and the life world. These episodes, recorded during the COVID-19 pandemic, focus on disability, eugenics, and mutual aid. We’re hoping to capture some of the conversations that disabled people, and our allies, are having about issues such as healthcare infrastructure, medical triage, eugenics, and technology as it is unevenly distributed across the population. These episodes are also going to come out at a different rate than the regular Contra* episodes, so please make sure to subscribe on Google, Apple, or Stitcher so that you don’t miss any.
00:01:30 Aimi This is Aimi Hamraie. I'm excited to be here with Dasom Nah, who is a disabled educator and community organizer at Senior and Disability Action. Also, an immigrant and a poet. And currently, they're organizing with the Disability Justice Culture Club in support of mutual aid, resource coordination, and planning an online speaker series to support disabled Black and Indigenous people of color artists who have lost work due to the virus. Welcome!
00:02:00 Dasom Hi!
00:02:02 Aimi Hi, how are you?
00:02:03 Dasom I'm doing okay, how are you?
00:02:05 Aimi Yeah, hanging in there! Some kind of thing, yeah.
00:02:08 Dasom Yeah, basically the same. Yeah. Same.
00:02:10 Aimi Well I'm very excited to talk to you today about, you know, your analysis and thoughts about what's happening right now in the Coronavirus pandemic. So, maybe just to start, what's your take on this pandemic and ableism? And how that's showing up in this time?
00:02:32 Dasom Right. So… I feel like the biggest thing that I'm noticing—or there are two things that I'm noticing. Is that… the first thing is more of an erasure of disabled people from the mainstream narrative of—I guess, instead of naming disabled people, we're kind of referred to as, “Vulnerable populations,” alongside with, let's say like, older people. Or people sometimes—sometimes in the news, they say, “People with underlying health conditions.” But the word “disabled” is really used very rarely. And even reflecting on San Francisco's specific kind of measures that are being taken by local businesses, and organizations such as supermarkets and local, you know, corner stores and stuff like that, if they would post online that they have special times for people to drop in, in the morning, when it's supposedly less crowded. 00:03:47 Again, disabled people are rarely named. It's mostly, “For our senior population; for our older people.” And of course, working at Senior and Disability Action, I am really happy to see that there are measures that are being taken by, you know, local small businesses and Mom-and-Pop stores. But at the same time, it really breaks my heart to see that disabled people are, again, not being centered in this pandemic that is really impacting our community. And the second thing that I was thinking about is how—even when disabled people are named, it seems that it just kind of hasn't always becomes 00:04:26? And so, it becomes a really separate category, as if it exists outside of, you know, all the different intersections that disabled people exist in. 00:04:35 And I'm specifically talking about, you know, racism. And imperialism, in a way. Because I was thinking about how many people in prisons and jails and detention centers right now are due to previous, or ongoing trauma in those centers, right—are disabled or becoming disabled, also partially because of this virus as well. It's just… I feel like the lack of this intersectional approach to, you know, figuring out a way like, “How do we actually protect ourselves?” And it just leads to… leaving Black and Brown; Indigenous disabled people to basically die.
00:05:20 Aimi Yeah, absolutely. I am just continually shocked, although maybe I shouldn't be, by the decentering of disabled people, and disabled people's experience and knowledge, at this moment of global disablement and of global inaccessibility. And also, at the lack of intersectional analysis, as you pointed out, that the places where people are made the most vulnerable and unable to social distance are places of institutionalization, incarceration, detention. And those perspectives—and even, like, in mutual aid kinds of situations, like, it's often people organizing aid in this time, with the people who live around them, and not the people who live far away and are being cut off and denied visitation, and stuff like that. So, I'm so glad that you said that, just to put it at the forefront, that when folks are doing analysis of this pandemic, they need to understand that what is happening is, like, the mass death of disabled people of color.
00:06:34 Dasom Right, exactly. And thinking as statistics that have been, you know—or people's lives that have become statistics, more accurately—that have become really… well known, I think in the past few days of, you know, “So many per cent of Chicago deaths have been, you know, Black people.” And also, a similar percentage of people who have died in New Orleans have also been Black people. Just thinking about those things, and I also wonder—like, how many people from that statistic have been disabled, you know, in their lives? And how does that contribute to a heightened mortality rate, too? And just… people are not just Black and Brown. People are not just disabled. We hold multiple identities, and this pandemic should not erase that.
00:07:28 Aimi Yeah.
00:07:29 Dasom And I fear that it kind of does.
00:07:30 Aimi Yeah, absolutely. I keep hearing from people about how the virus is killing people indiscriminately. And it's like, actually, all of the structural inequalities in our healthcare system, in our cities, all of these things are shaping who lives and who dies in this moment. If they do catch the virus. So, maybe, like, turning to a more hopeful note, what are some forms of mutual aid and solidarity that you're taking part in right now?
00:08:05 Dasom So, right now, as you said earlier, I am doing resource coordination and acting as a point person for a few disabled BIPOC—QTIBIPOC. Sorry! Disabled Queer, trans or Black, Indigenous people of color, who have submitted requests for mutual aid in the Bay area, that was organized by DJCC and—Disability Justice Culture Club, sorry. And I think, just seeing—in the beginning, before we started seeing that this is not going to be a one month or two-months-long… you know, change of life, let's say? Like you know, the temporal—like a short-term change that we have to endure and then push through. 00:09:01 I was feeling really hopeful, seeing all the mutual aid stuff popping up, especially in the Bay area, seeing how our community is stepping forward, again. And bringing so much kindness and empathy, and generosity. And it actually helping people, you know? Because sometimes, those emotions can be just as limiting, when it, you know, disguises itself in charity. But, yeah. So, I am currently organizing with Disability Justice Culture Club in the Bay area as a resource coordinator and a point person for a few Queer, trans, Black, Indigenous people of color, who are disabled, who have submitted requests for mutual aid. And I am conflicted when it comes to my emotions about it. I think we all—as we all are, it's not technically black and white. 00:10:04 There are so many emotions attached to that. I am proud of us, seeing our disabled community stepping up like this, after Power to Live. And it just feels that there are so many catastrophes that are hitting us over and over again. But, at the same time I'm also feeling really… sad that this is not a short-term thing. That this is going to be—we have to continue relying on each other and… part of that also brings me hope in a way, because finally, we are understanding like—more people are understanding what it actually means to be interdependent. And to actually depend on one another, to survive through this thing? It's a little bit less—same with social distancing, right? It's not something that one person can do. We have to rely on each other to do it. And—or physical distancing, as some people say. 00:11:05 Just this catastrophe bringing in that—again and again, showing how the wisdom of disabled community is the thing that really enables us to shape the reality as we go on. But, at the same time, it is also a very—I see so much… so much love and care, also within the mutual aid network. And not only between, let's say, point people, as we call people who are directly dealing with requesters. But also, within the group, or volunteers, point people, resource coordinators, core people, and all of those different categories. We really love and care about each other's wellbeing, and I see that. At the same time, this is an exhausting thing to do, and this is something that I fear we won't be able to continue if everything just goes back to normal, right? 00:12:05 Everything just goes back to people being busy again. Like, that's something that I'm constantly thinking about. What would happen if we had the same catastrophe, if people were dying and—but social distancing and physical distancing was not an issue? Right? Would people—would we have the same amount of volunteers? Would we have the same amount of people who are able to provide mutual aid? And maybe right now is not the time to think about the really sad “What If?” scenarios, but it also is something that's creeping up in my mind, constantly. But, aside from mutual aid, where we provide mostly, I guess physical—we provide access to, I guess meeting basic needs that people have. I think another part of my work that I see is also creating online and digital spaces where people can gather together, and just focusing more on the mental health aspect of aid. 00:13:10 I think it's really important… this aspect is not really addressed, that I see, in—at least from what I can see from other people's like, social media posts and stuff like that. A lot of emphasis goes into, you know, delivering groceries and, you know, getting medication. But isolation has a huge… destructive impact, especially so on disabled communities, right? And I'm thinking of, also isolation that people in prisons and jails are experiencing day-to-day right now. And, you know, what are the ways that we can gather together again? What are the ways that we can continue—continue being part of, but also expanding our community, and expanding our reach, and expanding, expanding the way that we support each other? 00:14:16 So, that being said, I see the online speaker series that we call Justice Brunch, as one of the ways that we can do that. That is helping us expand our reach, beyond just Bay area disabled folks, right? Or we are serving not only disabled folks, but Black and Indigenous people of color. And elders. And so, reaching beyond our main reach here—main populations here. And I think having the cultural—having disabled BIPOC who are cultural workers provide their work, and also being able to support them through that, as well. By paying them, of course! But also, like broadening their audiences as well, in a way, is something that I see as very necessary in this moment. And something that we shouldn't forget about.
00:15:19 Aimi Because it seems like so much of what you're talking about, like, at its core, is the question of, “What kinds of relationships do we want to have with each other?” And, “What kinds of relationships of care?” So, the question that—you know, disabled people, we ask this question all the time, because we are often used to organizing care for ourselves and with our comrades and our friends and family. And in this moment—and this is related also to the conversation we had earlier about how disability is getting de-centered. Like, in this moment, people are asking for relationships and care in different ways. And that some people are like, building them for the first time ever. Like, really building the kinds of relationships that have life-and-death sort of stakes, you know? 00:16:16 In all of these different examples that you've given us, like, there's a sort of—there's like a theory that informs what a good relationship is and isn't. And I'm so interested and curious in the ways that disability justice is informing how we think about mutual aid and solidarity. I also talked to Jay Salazar this morning, and we talked about, like, you know—even just the forms that DJCC uses for intake are so informed by disability justice concepts and theories and stuff. So, you know, what do you think about that? Like, what are the relationships that we're trying to build, and the forms of care that we're trying to make last, going forward? And not just be tied to this kind of crisis-centered moment?
00:17:15 Dasom I guess I'm having difficulty answering that question because I do not see another way of doing things outside of a disability justice perspective. So, I worry whether or not these relationships would last. That is something that is constantly on my mind. As a point person, I check in with the volunteer I assign to the requester, both with the volunteer and the requester to make sure that the relationship is continuing to build, and that they can create more of a reliable one-to-one kind of process, of getting the requester's needs met. But I think, this is the moment when we have to—this is not a—this is a process, you know? So, I feel like everything that we are doing right now, we have to continue making sure that these relationships will actually last. 00:18:12 And just because we connect the volunteer with the requester, for example, or just because we are connecting as point people or resource coordinators with our requesters, it's not enough. And it's something—I think that is what is part of—that is what is really the core of disability justice, is that nothing is just done and done. And we have to keep centering our disabled BIPOC. We have to keep centering our Queer, trans, disabled people. And making sure that none of us is being forgotten. And I think, maybe that is kind of answering your question because this crisis is not the end, it's just the beginning for us to actually have more time to focus on one another and check in on one another. And us actually realizing that time is also a resource. Using that to really understand what “resource redistribution” means.
00:19:23 Aimi Yeah, I love that. This—we have an abundance of time right now. And everything that enables us to do—depending on how we spend it, right? Yeah. Are there any other lessons from DJCC, in this moment, that you want to share with us?
00:19:44 Dasom Yes. So, the biggest thing is, I think people are slowly realizing how disability justice is not a big concept, but it's something that you do every day, small things. I really love—I think Stacey Park, Stacey Park Milbern posted this recently on Facebook, saying how disability justice can look like washing your hands for forty seconds. Before you go into anyone's house. Or, if you are—even if you're alone at home, you know? And I just feel that, that is the core of disability justice; is that we just have to realize that every little step that we do, is shaping our reality; is shaping other people's realities. And everyone is depending on one another. And my existence is not just solitary. 00:20:41 I exist in a community and I rely on other people who are also a mutual aid network, for example, to do their own part, so I can do my part, right? And I think that is something that really came up, during this crisis, of how much more connected we are? Even in this supposed isolation time? And how… there is much more responsibility on our shoulders than we want to believe, or that we used to believe. Yeah, I think… what can I say? Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:26 Aimi Yeah. Beautiful. Such an important lesson about interdependence and I wish that the structures that are set up to take care of us better understood that. So much of the mutual aid work that we do is because the state doesn't provide that same aid, right? Or it doesn't do the things that are necessary to make sure that the people who are the most at-risk survive. And… yeah. This piece about building relationships and recognizing our independence, and also how much we rely on each other just seems—it seems like it's on everyone's minds right now, in a new way.
00:22:17 Dasom And I feel that it is also showing us how systems that are put in place are not enough, and of course, they're not designed to care for us. Right? But… it's not—they're not able to substitute care. They can sustain us, maybe, if they were built properly, but I think, again, going back to having time as a resource, I think being able to kind of divorce ourselves a little bit from day-to-day, suffocating capitalism that is really omnipresent in the Bay area, especially, I would say—really shows us how much care we need. And how much care we can provide outside of the systems. And that is how—that is something that has been—like, the systems that are in place have been stopping us from doing that. And now, when we see them crumbling, we see those systems crumbling, we see the institutions that were built against us being shaken; we finally have an opportunity to be there for one another. And I hope that is what continues.
00:23:42 Aimi Yeah, me too. If you could write the ideal future for us, in terms of solidarity and mutual aid, and disability justice, what would that be like?
00:23:55 Dasom That's a difficult question because I think of the future as Octavia Butler describes it, in her Parable series, of God Is Change and we need to shape change. And again, I do not see future as a final destination, but as a process? And I think, going back to disability justice—the ideal future that we see, is… somewhere where everyone is taking part in shaping their future and we're not being relegated to the sides, while everything is being changed for us. And… yeah. That's the future that I'm hoping for.
00:24:42 Aimi Beautiful. Well, thank you so much Dasom, it was really awesome to talk to you. And what are some ways for people who are listening to the podcast, or reading the transcript, to support the work that you're doing?
00:24:59 Dasom Donate to the DJCC! And I want to be very careful about saying, “Check in on disabled people,” because… or, “Check in on your disabled friends,” because sometimes, people just check in. Instead of just checking in, try to see what you can do with this extra time to—to show that you care, not just send a message. And if you have resources? Give them away. Or redistribute them.
00:25:29 Aimi Yes. That is the lesson of this moment, for sure. Great, well, thank you Dasom. It was a pleasure having you on the podcast.
00:25:39 Dasom Thank you, it was such a pleasure.
00:25:42 OUTRO You’ve been listening to Contra*, a podcast about disability, design justice and the life world. Contra* is a production of the Critical Design Lab, learn more about our projects at mapping-access.com, and be sure to follow us on Twitter and Instagram. If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please head over to Apple podcasts to subscribe, rate and leave a review. The Contra* podcast is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Non-Commercial-Share-Alike-International 3.0 license. That means you can remix, repost or recycle any of the content, as long as you cite the original source, aren’t making money, you don’t change the credits, and you share it under the same license.
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