Transcript
Embry Wood Owen in conversation with Dr Aimi Hamraie
[Start of recording]
00:00:11 INTRO [Various overlapping voices] Contra* is friction. Contra* is nuanced. Contra* is transgressive—good trouble. Contra* is questions. Contra* is collaborative. Contra* is a podcast. It’s a space for thinking about design critically. Contra* is subversive. Contra* is texture.
00:00:32 Contra* You are listening to Solidarity Chats: a special section of the Contra* podcast on disability, design justice, and the life world. These episodes, recorded during the COVID-19 pandemic, focus on disability, eugenics, and mutual aid. We’re hoping to capture some of the conversations that disabled people, and our allies, are having about issues such as healthcare infrastructure, medical triage, eugenics, and technology as it is unevenly distributed across the population. These episodes are also going to come out at a different rate than the regular Contra* episodes, so please make sure to subscribe on Google, Apple, or Stitcher so that you don’t miss any.
00:01:29 Aimi This is Aimi Hamraie, and I'm so pleased to be here with Embry Wood Owen who is a researcher on Disability and Public Space, and an organizer based in Philadelphia. Welcome Embry!
00:01:43 Embry Thank you so much for having me!
00:01:45 Aimi The reason that I invited you onto the podcast today is that you are organizing a mutual aid network in Philadelphia, and so, I wanted to talk to you about some of the lessons and challenges and opportunities and stuff that have come up with that. So, do you want to say a little bit about the network that you're organizing?
00:02:08 Embry Sure! So, the network that I'm co-organizing now in Philadelphia and, for those who know Philly, our network is primarily reaching folks in Center City and South Philadelphia. It's called Mutual Aid Philly. And I started organizing—really, just talking with some other folks in disability community in early March, before COVID-19 had really come here and had much of a presence here, in Philly. And just talking about, you know, how we might be able to support each other in community when this did hit here. And I was really inspired by Leah Lakshmi Piepzna-Samarasinha’s idea of care webs, that they write about in their book Care Work: Dreaming Disability Justice. 00:03:06 So, I wasn't even super familiar with the… history, outside of disability community of mutual aid, at that point. But I really wanted to start thinking about how we could, within disability, take care of each other as COVID hit. And the idea was really open-ended. It was around asks and offers. And I think, you know, disabled and chronically ill folks, we often have both? Like, we often have things that we need and we're looking for, but we also often have things that we can support with. Which—I think a lot of mutual aid organizing kind of places folks into like, one category or the other. It's very binary. And I was interested in something that was a little more fluid? And… eventually, it just started to grow outwards. 00:04:04 I started reaching out to other folks who were disabled or chronically ill, and allies of disability communities who I didn't know personally. And I started kind of linking folks together, who might be able to support each other based on asks and offers. And then it really got to the point where I realized this was something where we needed, you know, more organizers at the table. I definitely could not do it alone, which I learned very quickly. And so, I linked up with some other organizers and we're now running a mutual aid network within that, you know, geographic area that I mentioned. And we're actually reaching a much broader cross-section of people. So, there's a lot of disabled and chronically ill folks that we're reaching, but where we are, geographically, we have a lot of neighbors who are Latinx, who are immigrants, many of whom are undocumented—just kind of based on the information that they're sharing about not receiving any of the stimulus offerings from the federal government. 00:05:17 And so, for me, one of the things that's been really exciting about this is we're organizing at intersections that just, like, typically never happened before COVID. Like, disability organizing usually happens over here, and then, like, immigrant organizing, like undocumented organizing typically happens over there. And, like… now, COVID is kind of breaking down a lot of these barriers, because folks have needs and concerns that are common. So, that's been super exciting for me. It's also just been really challenging. You know, running a mutual aid network with other organizers is challenging. And it's constantly kind of toddling between the macro and the micro. 00:06:09 We're thinking about, you know, how do we meet immediate needs in the community? But then also, how do we build political and social power together for the long haul? Because the mutual aid can help folks and connect folks on the day-to-day, but we also want to be pushing for, you know, larger structural change that needs to come out of this. The way that you write about access, and the way that Astra Taylor writes about democracy in her book, Democracy May Not Exist, but We'll Miss it When it's Gone, it's this idea that, like, these things are like, evolving; they're never finished; they're never perfect. It's, like, these processes that are ongoing. And I think that's one of the really exciting things about organizing, but especially right now, is that we're just constantly evolving and trying new things with the community to try to better support each other.
00:07:08 Aimi Hm, yeah, I love all of those connections. So, going back to the beginning of how your network was organized, it sounds like it really came out of a disability focus, right? And then, it kind of expanded or built solidarities with other groups, is that right?
00:07:27 Embry That's right.
00:07:29 Aimi Were there existing disability networks and communities that were—that you were kind of, like, calling in, or that had—you know, that you had experience with in the past in developing skills around mutual aid that this was based on?
00:07:48 Embry Yeah, I think, you know, I have definitely looked to organizers in other cities who have done really amazing, you know, interdependent solidarity work in the past. You know, based on—in disability community, I'm thinking about the Power to Live movement that happened in the Bay area last year, with the PG&E 00:08:20 wildfires. The Disability Justice Culture Club, which is part of that in the Bay area. And so, for me, a lot of that was kind of a motivating force and a modelling force with which to work from. Here, in Philadelphia, I would say that, you know, there's a lot of informal disability community that I've drawn from during this time. 00:08:50 There are some kind of larger disability organizations. Some of whom we've been able to reach and try to work with, others of which I think are operating with more of like a social service lens. And I think that's one of the big challenges for mutual aid, is to—you know, kind of step out of that social service delivery model and into something that is more generative, more community-based, more interdependent. And that's… you know, it's an evolution, it's ongoing. Like, that's hard.
00:09:35 Aimi Yeah. I'm really struck by the way that so many of the mutual aid networks that are popping up around the country have been started by disabled people and are really run by disabled people. And here in Nashville, where I also organize a mutual aid network with a bunch of other disabled and non-disabled people, when we first got started doing this work, we were reaching out to different cities and kind of getting a sense of how they were organizing their infrastructure and stuff. And it was kind of funny, because in almost every case, it was like, "Oh, hello, fellow disabled person! You are doing this work!" And that's not to say that non-disabled people aren't doing it either, but there is something about, kind of—the ways that we typically operate that kind of help us slide into this a little bit more. And the models that we have, that we look to. For example, the Disability Justice Culture Club and historical examples of mutual aid and stuff. 00:10:39 So, I think that's all really interesting. Something that you mentioned earlier that I also wanted to go back to, is this idea that within these mutual aid networks, now there are solidarities being forged that weren't happening necessarily before. And you gave the example of solidarities between disabled and undocumented folks. So, do you want to say more about that?
00:11:01 Embry Yeah, and just one other thing I want to add about what you just mentioned is, I have thought a lot about, you know, what is it that… that makes it so that, you know, disabled people are… you know, ready or comfortable to, you know, do mutual aid work; exist in this space that is mutual aid. And I've spoken a lot about this with one friend, who also identifies as disabled, in particular here, in Philly. And one of the things that's come up for us, is the fact that many disabled folks, the two of us included, just have a lot of experience asking for help. And like, we're comfortable with that because we have been in situations where we have had to ask for help before, and we have had to kind of exist in that space of vulnerability. 00:12:09 And we've known that our community has, like, been there to do that for us? And so, I think, kind of, like, we have a—almost like a pre-existing trust in these systems. And a pre-existing understanding of how essential they are. So, I don't know, there's something to me there about disabled folks, many disabled folks, being already quite expert at asking for help and communicating needs. And communicating, you know, offers and boundaries and then all that. Yeah, in terms of the solidarities between undocumented folks and disabled folks and allies working in our community, it feels really like, new and emerging, because it's something that, you know, we've just kind of started seeing in the coming weeks—or in the previous weeks. 00:13:13 But, I—you know, a lot of the folks that we are talking to and, you know, providing—linking mutual aid with, are undocumented. Some of them have, you know, disabled—are disabled themselves, or have household members who are disabled. And then, we have other community members who identify as disabled, but aren't necessarily part of an undocumented or immigrant community. 00:14:00And we're working in kind of new and emerging ways with organizations that work with the disability community, like our local Center for Independent Living, but we're also working with organizations that do a lot of immigrant organizing. And so, I think that—I don't know, like, where this is going to go. But I feel excited because just the fact that these communities are starting to kind of coalesce in the same network, and that organizations are starting to, like, connect in the same network. And we're starting to, like, understand common needs and experiences in this time. I feel really excited that we could start to build organizing power together. And… this just feels like a time where that's finally happening, and it feels, you know, quite interesting 00:15:03.
00:15:04 Aimi Yeah. It's helpful to hear that. And I think it's kind of part of a pattern that we may start tracing with mutual aid, moving forward. Because, you know, mutual aid itself is happening at an unprecedented rate because of COVID. And in my community as well, we are finding those solidarities taking shape. It's like, there are people who are part of our networks who show up to weekly calls, who are part of different community organizations, like activist organizations, some of which are non-profits, and some of which are more grassroots, that don't usually share space. And they are there to explore what solidarity means together. And we are, you know, we're organizing care and mutual aid, but we're also doing political education together. Where we're studying, you know, what does mutual aid mean and how has this concept shifted and evolved? 00:16:05 And so, the impact of that is that all of those broader struggles are also then informed by these interactions. And it's been kind of cool to see how—what solidarity looks like, as opposed to the sort of, what you were describing before as like, the social service, or even, like, charity model of like, "We're going to get these resources together and we're going to coordinate and distribute them and have, like, social workers or case workers," like that kind of model? Which is—you know, that's an important thing too. But just kind of like, these more informal things, like people, you know, putting out a call for a translation and getting translators that they didn't know before, who are then joining immigrant rights associations—like, immigrant rights and refugee rights organizations. And, you know, folks, like, coming into disability identity that didn't necessarily have that before, even though they were disabled, because they are suddenly around so many disabled people doing leadership. And so, it's really cool, to watch that stuff unfold. And I am kind of—I'm excited to also know what some of the possibilities of that may be. And some of the strategizing that we can do around it.
00:17:29 Embry Yeah. I think, for me, I feel… at times it… you know, day to day, I kind of vacillate between feeling tired and overwhelmed, because, you know, the needs that we are seeing and that we are talking to folks about are great. We're talking to—especially last week—we were talking to a lot of folks who were very, very stressed about paying rent. And, you know, mutual aid is not designed to pay people's rent. That needs to be something that is tackled on a structural, you know, governmental scale, and I think mutual aid is really powerful to talk to people about their rights and their opportunities and their options for how to, you know, negotiate with their landlord and think about, you know, how do they prioritize. 00:18:34 But then, I also think about the… the opportunities and the possibilities long-term, coming out of this. Building political and social power together. Having communities work together in solidarity, that otherwise wouldn't have. Even just what we're doing in mutual aid networks across the country, redistributing wealth from folks who are well-off, getting stimulus checks from the government—you know, many of us being white—to folks who are undocumented and getting nothing. Like, that's extremely powerful and feels, you know, very generative and exciting. So, highs and lows!
00:19:26 Aimi Yeah, yeah, for sure. Another thing that, you know, you mentioned earlier—the concept of care webs, from Leah Lakshmi Piepzna-Samarasinha and something I've been thinking about is that, this is a moment in which a lot of the relationship-building skills that are necessary to really get mutual aid going are being taught by disabled people, because, you know, we're always engaging in these various access intimacies. And also, a lot of people who have no exposure or experience with this in the past are, like, understanding that there are life-and-death stakes to learning these skills. And so, I wonder if you have any thoughts about that, or any like, examples of ways that people are learning to build relationships within your network that are totally new to them, or that are different than the types of relationships that would have been built before?
00:20:26 Embry Yeah, I really appreciate you asking that because… it's so funny. I left my job right before this really took off. For many reasons. You know, I was really wanting to engage in a period of research and exploration about how I could be doing work that was more aligned with my values and was also more directly connected to disability community. And I was in a financially privileged position enough to take a couple of months off. And it's… it's just so funny doing this work, you know, talking to people every day and training people and, you know, leading this kind of work, because it feels very natural. 00:21:25 Like, it's tiring, but it feels natural because I think a lot of the skills that we build in disability community around, you know, not assuming and listening to others closely, and drawing boundaries, and patience. Those are things that are really essential for this work. And so, those are things that, you know, when I train people who are going to help us coordinate requests that come in through our system and match people, those are things that I talk about in addition to the origins of mutual aid and, you know, how mutual aid comes out of communities of color and disabled communities. I talk about, you know, these skills of active listening and the importance of drawing boundaries. 00:22:29 And the importance of, kind of, being patient with folks. And just meeting folks, I think, where they are. You know, people come to us in a lot of different states. You've got, maybe, a volunteer who is really wanting to help, but then maybe needs some help kind of understanding the flexibility and malleability that mutual aid requires. Or you're talking to someone who's out of food and needs food and is, like, stressed because they're hungry. And that's a reality. And so, I think that… it's exciting to be in a time when—and in a network and in a position when, like, the skills that we use in community every day, and like, are part of our lives, are, like, exactly what is needed for this time. And I think that's kind of, like, a microcosm of much of what's happening for disability community right now, on a larger scale.
00:23:46 Aimi Yeah, for sure. Those are such great examples. And those are the kinds of things that, you know, don't get as much attention or fanfare, you know, in like, the news articles about mutual aid and things like that, that are often more focused on the material dimensions of it. You know, one really amazing thing that's happening right now is that people are re-writing their social scripts around how to interact with other people. And they're learning to ask for what they need and negotiate what they need, and all of these things that are so much a part of our lives as disabled people, but, are not often valued. Or they're treated as sort of, like, devalued forms of care work or they're just sort of, you know, not viewed as productive forms of communication necessarily. And so, they're not given as much significance and credit. So, I'm really glad that we have those examples from you. Thank you!
00:24:45 Embry Yeah, and I really—I appreciate you bringing that up, because I think that… so often, even in the mutual aid context, which has roots in our community, has roots in communities of color and other communities that have long been denied, you know, what we need from the state. It is hard at times to hold on to norms and values of disability community. You know, when you're getting—it can be easy to shift into a mindset of productivity, or, you know, focusing on, you know, how much we got done, or how much money is coming in, or things like that. Instead of like—or just going to solution, I think, when oftentimes—you know, we don't have the solution. The solution kind of demands a larger political and social response. And so, sitting with someone, being able to engage in that space, you know. And say, like, "Yeah, I'm here and your neighbors are here in solidarity with you. Like, we are all dealing with the same thing. Even though we can't solve it." Is—that's also valuable. Talking to three people, having three, you know, meaningful, helpful conversations with folks, even if you have a list of like twenty people you need to call? Like, that's valuable. That's quote unquote, "productive." So.
00:26:28 Aimi Mhm. Are there ways that, within your mutual aid network, people… are there any like, strategies or methods for building relationships amongst yourselves? Like, within the group of organizers, that you think are interesting and want to share?
00:26:44 Embry Yeah. So, we have two to three people who shift together every day, on our requests. So, basically, they work together in a two-hour block to look at requests that have come in and contact people. And they realized—or you know, I guess we realized collectively after the first week—that like, it works better, and it also like, feels a lot better if you are with the other person on Zoom or FaceTime or whatever, while you're working. Because there's the ability to, like, kind of coordinate together. But then, there's also the ability to support each other if you are like—you just get off the phone with someone and it's really intense. So, the folks who do, like, shift coordination, route 00:27:44 matching. 00:27:46 They—each day, they'll—the pair of people will be on a Zoom or FaceTime together. And we also… that group of matchers or coordinators, we meet together every two weeks to kind of talk about, like, what's working well. Like, what's not working. Like, how can we address those things and also build on the things that are working well? And then in terms of the organizers who, you know, the seven or eight of us across the group, who are kind of running things in terms of operations, and outreach, and matching. We meet once a week and I think we've kind of loosely been operating by a consensus model, but I want to shift even more deliberately towards that. 00:28:43 I think that a consensus model is really powerful for both like, accountability and buy-in 00:28:50 And… yeah, I've sort of gone back and forth on like, "Should we do more, like, remote, like, fun stuff? Should we have, like, a remote happy hour?" And like, the truth of the matter is, like, as someone whose, like, brain and eyes are constantly tired, I'm like, "I don't really want to go to a remote happy hour," so I don't really want to create one! But I think what we're going for is a sense of generative organizing? And a sense of, you know, if people want to connect in different ways, they can do that. And if it's a remote happy hour that some people want to do, they can do that.
00:29:40 Aimi Yeah, that makes sense. It’s interesting how, like, the structure that you mentioned of people, like two or three people, being on a shift together itself becomes this opportunity for communiality and connection. And not just—it seems like it’s not just to get the work done but it’s also contributing to the broader relations, like within the network itself. We have a thing that we do in our network that is a… it’s a structure that actually came from something that we do in my research lab, which is that we have these rotating pairings of people. So, every, like, couple of weeks, people—it’s sort of like a round robin kind of thing and they get paired with a different person that they’ve never been paired with before. And they, you know, they have each other’s email addresses, because we probably have, like, fifty people in the network and, like, you know, twenty who show up to the calls. 00:30:38 But also, a lot of other people can’t come to the calls for various reasons, like worker access and stuff. And so, that way people have a chance to have a one-on-one conversation with one other person and ask the question of like, “How can I support your projects? How can I be in solidarity with you?” And it’s been really cool to see what st—like, what stuff comes out of those pairings that then becomes part of the projects that we take on, because people have the ability to just, like, have a face-to-face digital conversation with someone or sometimes over the phone, just with someone else about something that’s related and important to them.
00:31:19 Embry I really love that idea of people connecting one-on-one and building relationships that way. I might take that idea. Thanks!
00:31:28 Aimi Yeah, feel free. It's a good facilitation technique, also. Okay, so, another reason I'm really excited to talk to you is that you've been doing research on disability in public space. And this is an area that's also very much on my mind, and in my research. And I've been thinking so much during this time of isolation, about what is even happening with the concept of public space? And what is the future of public spaces? And how may some of the, you know, opportunities, and also the things that we're being forced to do because of COVID, how might those shift what the experience of public space is like for disabled people, moving forward? So, I don't know if you have any—what are your thoughts about public space right now?
00:32:24 Embry I… my work on public space kind of comes out of—well, it comes out of your tradition, which I'm calling a tradition because your work has been groundbreaking. But it also comes out of the tradition of Eric Klinenberg and other folks who write about social infrastructure, and why social infrastructure, which is things like parks and libraries and other places that are truly public, are really essential for democracy. And I think public space is more essential than ever, right now. Especially in cities, because… right here in Philadelphia, the one place where you can go outside of your home right now and really feel a sense of respite, is your public park. 00:33:28 And, whether your park is accessible to you, whether you feel like your public park belongs to you, whether you—you know, it's close to you, or you have to get on transit, which is now obviously kind of a no-go for many folks. It—like, it's critical. And so, I think the fact that public space has kind of winnowed so much, but really, public parks have become, kind of, this one option for us, makes it even more important to think about. And… I think that, you know, going forward, we have an opportunity to… 00:34:28 I feel like people—mostly like, able-bodied, middle-class, white people, I hear them talk about, like, "I can't wait until we," quote unquote, "Go back to normal." And I'm like, "Well, that's not happening." Because there's no, like—everything is going to be different after this. And I think there's so much possibility in shaping what that different world is. And I think that public space, for so long, has been designed in many ways within, you know, an able-bodied, you know, framework. And what you term in building access is a normate template, you know? And when designers, and planners, and other folks think about, you know, and imagine the public that embodies that public space, they think about someone who's able-bodied. 00:35:30 And so, going forward, you know, I think we need to understand that the way we design public space needs to change, because in this moment, like, and in future moments like this one, because this isn't the last pandemic that's ever going to happen, public space is more critical than ever, like it's—it's essential right now.
00:35:54 Aimi Yeah. I'm struck by this image of like, white, non-disabled people in parks and things like that. I don't know if you've been seeing these photos of people in Manhattan not social distancing, and being in the park, and being outside. And, you know, the mayor of New York has been called out a lot, because there's actually quite a bit of policing of Black people in public parks and public spaces, and other neighborhoods. And I'm thinking about how, like, you know, these—this sort of securitization of space, sort of thing has—it's not new, it's been happening. It's part of the racist structure of our cities and also, there's accordingly, in addition to all of the structural reasons why disabled people are excluded from public spaces, now there are these sorts of things that are almost like invisible or illegible. 00:36:55 You know, it's like, the air—we don't know what's in the air. And so, we don't go outside. And we don't know which other people may present, kind of, a life-and-death sort of situation for us, like if we're chronically ill or if we have like, respiratory stuff. Whatever. And so, I wonder if some of our ways of talking about environmental barriers may shift. And I'm also just really curious to see if there's ever going to be a reinvigoration of public space, as like, a thing. Because, you know, it seems like a lot of the conversations I've been hearing are about things like the need to contain spaces. And the need to, you know, contain people. Or, you know—and this is—I've been trying to watch what the urban planners, especially the ones that are drinking the New Urbanist Kool-Aid, like, what they're saying about this. 00:37:55 Because you know, their thing forever has been, "Car culture is bad, suburban housing structures are bad." And in some cases, those may be what is minimizing risk for certain people, in a very classed and racialized sort of way. So, yeah. This is just like—I think that the whole concept of public spaces is going to be re-thought. And the way that we talk about the norms of who gets to access it are also going to be shifted and changed.
00:38:33 Embry Yeah, I think you're right. And just kind of going back to something that you mentioned about folks who have asthma and who have other like, upper respiratory illnesses or like, chronic illnesses of that nature. I think that this time has made me—and I hope—it has made me rethink. And I hope it will carry 00:39:01 to a broader rethinking in our community, about how folks who are affected by, you know, chronic asthma and other respiratory diseases are part of disability community and need to be included in conversations that we're having about disability justice and disability identity. 00:39:29 Here in Philadelphia, we have an oil refinery, that is located in an area that is surrounded by a community that's primarily populated by folks of color. And the rate of asthma, COPD and related cancers is extremely high in that community, compared to the rest of the city and is, you know, way higher than what is, quote unquote, "normal," in the population. And the folks in those communities are obviously at super-high risk for COVID, but I think that… you know, the way that the primary organization in that neighborhood working on those issues, which is called Philly Thrive, the way that they, you know, talk about these issues is not with like, a politicized disability identity. 00:40:39 But I think that it's really important for folks who are working in, you know, disability justice or disability studies, to start thinking about how do we, you know, work with communities and with individuals and organizations that are dealing with these kinds of issues and—because, you know, we need to be working together. So, that's something that I've been thinking about a lot, and I think that is going to be really important for public space going forward, because it's going to be a key part of, like, access needs and access considerations.
00:41:23 Aimi Mm, yeah. That's so important. Thank you for flagging that too, as an opportunity for our disability justice conversations to expand around this, and to think about public space more directly. Are there any final thoughts you'd like to leave us with, or ideas about how folks who are listening to this, or reading the transcript, can support your projects? Like your mutual aid project, for example?
00:41:51 Embry Yeah, I think the best thing to do, is to find and plug into what's happening in your community. Really just start there. There is the website called mutualaidhub.org, which has a searchable map of mutual aid projects across the United States. And I think it's just really good to start local. And if you know, you aren't seeing something near you, start talking with folks who are in disability community, maybe reach out to your local Center for Independent Living and see how they're working with folks, and how you might be able to support. You know, for our network, if you're local to Philadelphia, we're at mutualaidphilly.com. And our hotline is 215-798-0222. 00:42:50 You can call us or text us in English, Spanish or Mandarin Chinese. And I think also, this is just an important time to kind of hold—or try to hold all of the, like, challenges and fears, and also the, like, opportunities and joys that are happening in disability community. You know, there are a lot of folks who are afraid and very concerned—rightly so—about eugenics and the denial of care to folks in disability community, especially folks who are not living independently in the community, and are in like, long term care facilities. 00:43:48 But then, I also think that there are incredible opportunities right now for organizing and even just on a personal level, you know, folks whose—you know, relationships to access, and to time, and all of those things—are changing and being reframed for the better. So, it's all so exciting. And I think this moment is not like—there isn't one narrative, or one experience. And I think that's, like, true of disability at large, but it's very true for this moment.
00:44:30 Aimi Thank you, Embry, so much! It's been wonderful to talk to you and to learn from you. And I look forward to continuing these conversations.
00:44:40 Embry Thank you! It's wonderful to talk with you.
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